Episode 15: Matisse Thybulle - The Fifth Ninja Turtle

And we’re live.

Welcome to another episode of the Red Black Comeback podcast, a podcast that is ostensibly about the rebuilding efforts of the Toronto Raptors and the Portland Trailblazers.

But it’s actually about so much more.

You probably know this by now.

We have millions of listeners.

My name is Dave.

I am one of the co-hosts.

I’m in Toronto.

My co-host Jonathan is in Portland, Oregon.

John, how are you doing?

Doing great, Dave.

Although we have an atmospheric river pouring in upon us right now.

What?

The river’s flooding.

Yeah, it’s crazy.

So much rain.

So now I need to explain this.

Atmospheric river sounds like a grunge band from 93.

Yeah, no, it’s definitely one of those global warming types of things that I had never heard this phrase before a few years ago.

But yeah, apparently there is, I think like three, this is a true fact, three trillion tons of water hovering above the Pacific Northwest right now and it’s currently coming down.

We have this thing in Portland called the Big Pipe, which I can’t believe they couldn’t find a better name for it.

But basically they installed this thing called the Big Pipe that handles, you know, wastewater overflow and the Big Pipe is completely full right now and it is supposed to keep raining for days.

So yeah, good times.

Good time to be inside and have a lot of good basketball to watch.

Good.

I mean, not good if you’re like, you know, the Big Pipe.

The Big Pipe is feeling fully, it’s feeling itself.

Like it is serving its purpose.

Is it though or is it just like sort of like busy?

It knows why it’s around.

It’s around for this right now.

So you actually just mentioned that we’ve got a lot of good basketball to watch.

Before we get into our usual shtick, what’s the best game you’ve seen lately?

And you can’t say a Portland game and you won’t say a Toronto game because we’ve been playing like ass.

Let’s see.

The best game I saw was the last 30 seconds of the Phoenix Timberwolves game.

Last night?

Yeah, yeah.

That’s funny because I was going to bring this game up too.

So tell me, so you only watched the last 30 seconds?

Yeah, I mean I poked in a little bit and I didn’t, honestly I thought the Wolves were going to run away with it.

And so yeah, the end was off the charts.

I mean, so here’s the thing, right?

You know, I posted this on threads a couple times and I’ve told a couple of my NBA buddies.

I think I even told you, but actually now that I think about it, I probably already said this on the podcast.

But the job that Jordan Ott is doing at Phoenix is ridiculous.

That team is completely different.

So they trade Kevin Durant out.

They bring in Brooks and they bring in Jalen Green.

And everybody was celebrating.

They’re like, Houston had no leverage.

KD wanted to go to Houston and they basically had a market of one and they could have done whatever they wanted from the front office perspective.

They could have pulled teeth.

They could ask for everything.

And general consensus was, oh, well, Houston got Kevin Durant, the guy that they wanted, the guy that wanted to go there and didn’t have to give up Jabari Smith Jr.

or Reed Shepard.

And they got off a guy, Jalen Green, that they basically never really believed in the first place.

And I kind of like Jalen Green, but that’s a different story for a different day.

Anyway, so everybody expects Phoenix to be terrible.

They signed Booker to that two-year extension where he basically makes $75 million a year.

OK, fine.

It’s basically like, OK, sit tight.

We’re trying to fix this, but we’re going to give you your bucks for just sort of sitting here and losing for two more years.

And then they just come out of the gate and they’re a completely different team this year.

They have a lot of new personnel.

I’m not going to say that they don’t.

But Mark Williams is kind of breakable and Moise O’Neal is in his early 30s and Colin Gillespie was a two-way guy that they converted to a contract.

And Grayson Allen is Grayson Allen.

Dylan Brooks is Dylan Brooks.

And Oso Igdaro is a guy who was drafted in the late second out of Marquette.

And Ryan Dunn was always talked up as a defensive guy who showed a little bit of offensive capability last season.

And Jordan Goodwin was the Lakers' last cut.

This, on paper, this doesn’t seem like a good team.

It seems like a fine, OK, whatever team.

And these guys play harder than anybody in the NBA.

And I think this is just Jordan Ott.

And the reason I say this is because, and let me just double-check my math here.

Not my math, my standings here.

Jordan Ott left Cleveland.

He was an assistant coach in Cleveland.

And right now, the Phoenix Suns are in seventh place in the Western Conference at 14-10.

It is December 9th, by the way, if anybody didn’t know what day it was.

And the Cleveland Cavaliers, the team with Evan Mobley, Donovan Mitchell, Jared Allen, Max Struess, though Max has been hurt all year, Darius Garland, even though Darius Garland has been out of the lineup.

Jalen Tyson, DeAndre Hunter, Lonzo Ball, who’s in and out.

Sam Merrill.

They’re 14-11.

You know, they’re eighth in the East.

And so I’m always hearing that the West is better than the East.

So 14-10 in the West versus 14-11 in the East.

And the only real difference is that Jordan Ott has been in Phoenix and not in Cleveland.

And, you know, we ask, sure, sure, Jared Allen’s been hurt a little bit.

Darius Garland was hurt a little bit.

Yeah, well, Booker’s been out.

Right?

So what do you think of the Phoenix Suns?

Sorry to go on a rant, but I’m just really amazed by what they’re doing.

Yeah, no, I mean, obviously Phoenix is, you know, clearly one of the surprises in the West.

You know, two things that sort of stand out to me.

First of all, I actually am surprised Phoenix doesn’t get more just, like, general hate across the league.

I mean, having Grayson Allen and Dylan Brooks on the same team, you would think, like, you know, two of the most hateable players in the NBA, and yet somehow they’re not when they’re on the Suns.

I don’t know what that is.

Well, I don’t know that they’re not hateable.

I mean, Dylan Brooks is just still doing Dylan Brooks shit.

And yet, you know, as long as I’ve been watching sports, there’s been this thing, you know, as a guy who you hate to play against, but you love it when he’s on your team.

And this is a list that includes Brad Marchand in hockey and T.J.

McConnell and Dylan Brooks.

And, like, you know, I’m just trying to think of, like, a baseball and football equivalents, but I can’t really think of one at this moment.

But, yeah, I mean, like, those are those guys.

Now, Grayson Allen’s a dirty player.

Let’s just call it what it is.

He was a dirty player in college.

He was a dirty player in the NBA.

But, like, I don’t think he’s a bad person.

I think that, like, his competitive spirit gets the better of him sometimes.

And Dylan Brooks is this guy from frigging Mississauga, which is just north of where I am in Toronto.

And I have it on good authority that he was a really, really nice, cool guy in high school.

And it really does seem this is a persona he puts on to go and play.

You know, don’t forget, Dylan Brooks wasn’t some lottery pick.

He went to Oregon, and he was, like, a mid-to-late second-round pick.

And he now makes, like, $22 million a year because he’s really good at what he does, which is, you know, making teams.

Like, my partner, like, my partner who started watching basketball in 2022 when we got together and who has incredible permeating insights about the game, turned around to me when we were watching a little bit of that game yesterday, and she said, you know, Dylan Brooks is who you trade for when you think your guys are a little soft.

And I was like, that is exactly it.

Right?

So this brings me to my other comment on the Phoenix Suns, which is having Dylan Brooks, keeping Dylan Brooks in the conversation, having Dylan Brooks on the roster as opposed to, stay with me here, as opposed to having Bradley Beal on the roster is such a huge difference, particularly in that sort of undefinable aspect of heart and soul and grit.

I mean, honestly, Bradley Beal, yeah.

Well, also, Bradley Beal makes, like, $100 billion, too.

Yeah, I don’t care about that.

Before he got bought out.

I mean, if you care about winning, you know, Bradley Beal is like a bucket getter, but Bradley Beal was a bucket getter.

But your point is.

No, he still is a bucket getter.

He could score at will.

The problem is he only goes to score for Bradley Beal, doesn’t pass when he should pass.

He doesn’t play a lick of defense.

You know, it’s the most vanilla superstar offense that you can imagine.

And that’s not going to win.

I mean, he didn’t win in Washington.

He didn’t win in Phoenix.

You know, to me, he’s in the same category as Paul George is a loser.

He’s a loser.

There you have it.

I’m going on the record.

ahead that you know that you can hold onto the rim if you do get undercut or that if you go up strong, the defender is not going to close as hard because what’s the chance of really stopping the shot?

If you’re going to foul somebody, foul them hard, not dirty, but if you’re going to foul somebody going for almost uncontested to the rack, foul them hard to make sure the ball doesn’t go in.

If you’re so far ahead that you’re up in the air to dunk the ball and the defender’s coming up, he’s not going to try to foul you.

If he can’t really get a shot at the ball, why is he going to do that?

I like our third year shooting guard, a small forward guy, knows how to do it, but you’re a giant, this is how he probably made all of his baskets in high school guy, didn’t and I never understood that.

Other observations from this game, I want to stay with Grady for a sec.

Grady Dick was I think his 13th overall by the Raptors, you know, coming out of Kansas, good program, and Grady’s a solid player and he was a little light in his first year.

We put him on a weight plan and he responded and you know, I say this because Grady often comes up in trade talks, like oh, maybe we send Grady Dick out for this, this, this.

Whether or not that happens, Grady Dick plays really goddamn hard and he has improved his defense and he was already an okay defensive player, but he’s improved his defense and he’s so intense out there and he never gives up on a play.

And in the game against Portland, there was one dive out of bounds in the far end of the court to save the ball.

And also he missed on a steal.

He gambled on a steal later in the game and missed it, but didn’t give up on the play.

And when the guy, I think it was Caleb Love, and then when Caleb Love goes, oh, this guy went past me like as if he was the roadrunner who stayed still and Wile E.

Coyote blew past.

He offered this lazy ass pass to the corner and Grady had already recovered and intercepted the pass.

And it was just like one of those things that’s like, for all the blog boys who are like, ah, Grady’s this, Grady’s that, because he doesn’t average 20 points a game.

I was like, those are the plays that win games.

And the way that I know that is that I watched it happen.

We won the game and Grady did a lot of that stuff.

To talk a little bit more about my guys just for a second, Quigley was amazing.

23-5-8, 9-11 from the field, 5-6 from three.

Like, you can’t do much better than that.

Except that, in the first quarter, he scored like eight points bare minimum on floaters and didn’t float for the rest of the game.

Didn’t really understand that.

Scottie was great.

You know, Scottie kind of won that game with a block.

Ingram was great.

Very understated, but, you know, 21-6-3 hit, you know, important dunk at the end, free throw to make it a three-point game with one second left, I think.

Colin Murray-Boyle is really strong.

Sandro had a decent game.

Jacoby Walter was a little bit all over the place.

Let me talk about your guys for a second.

You asked me to do one specific thing when I went to this game.

Yep.

And which was that exactly?

What was that exactly?

I wanted your opinion of Tumani Kamara and wanted to know if you think he is first-team all-defense.

I think he could be.

I think watching him defend on ball was…

He actually started slow.

He actually got cooked once or twice.

But then he settled in and his instincts and his intelligence are off the charts.

And he’s very physical.

He’s a very strong guy and he moves side to side really well.

But the guy who actually surprised me more or impressed me more on defense, I’m sorry, it’s a guy that you actually don’t like very much, only within the context of him being your kind of, sort of, but not really starting point guard, was Sidi Sissoko.

I thought his on-ball defense was exceptional.

And that was, you know, like when he was coming into the league a couple years ago, they thought maybe he was going to be a fringe first-rounder.

He ended up dropping second round.

San Antonio took him.

And then he ended up going to Sacramento in the Darren Fox trade.

But that’s what they were saying.

They were saying that, like, him and my buddy Ryan Rupert, both are French players that are going to get known for their defense first, right?

And Sissoko has gotten more of a shake at the NBA level than Rupert has, for obvious reasons.

And while his game leaves a lot to be desired on the offensive end, I was actually very, very impressed with the way he moved on defense.

Time Lord, by the way, got 17 minutes in that game.

He scored six points.

And to the best of my knowledge, y’all guys don’t know how to use him.

Yeah, well, I mean, to be fair, we’ve only had him for a portion of the season, and he’s been on minutes, increasing, but minutes restrictions since the beginning of the season.

When he was in, in the second quarter, he was the best player on the court for both teams.

He was, because Rob Williams can, you know, he’s not like a take over the game, like, you know, like a guard can, or like a Scotty Barnes can.

But everything he touched worked.

He was brutally efficient on defense.

He blocked, like, what did he say?

It says that he blocked three shots, and I’m pretty sure they were all, like, there’s one in the first quarter, there’s one in the third quarter, one in the second quarter.

Yeah.

So I was going to say, I think he got one in the first, one in the second, one in the third, but I’m pretty sure that they could have actually given him a couple more, too.

I thought he was exceptional.

He’s, he is the lob threat that I wish Klingon was.

Like, the lobs, I mean, some of the most fun plays that the Blazers have had, you know, have when Rob’s in the game, he’s a legitimate lob threat, and you just have to respect it.

And because of that, you know, it just spaces everyone.

Well, and he goes up so strong, too.

So the thing is, is like, even if you try, you’re probably going to foul him.

Right.

Right?

So that was actually really impressive.

One of the other observations that I came away with, you’re not going to like very much, and I was actually quite disappointed in this.

Shadon Sharp is from London, Ontario, just down the road, you know, two hours away.

You know, I love all the Canadian hoopers in the NBA, and I think that, to a man, they’re doing great work.

That said, Sharp had two amazing dunks.

Like, highlight reel.

Like, any night of the week, that’s a number one, and he had two of them.

But the rest of the game, like, you know, 23 points, three rebounds, three assists, two steals, no blocks.

He was a plus two.

You know, nine of 18 from the field, which is good, zero of three from three, which is not good.

He was just kind of there.

And I worry, now that I’ve watched Shadon play a couple of times, and, you know, I always turn on a late game, and sometimes it’s Portland.

I really and truly worry that Shadon Sharp is another empty calories guy.

Like, if you, you know, he’s Anthony Simons.

You know what I mean?

Like, and I hate saying it, but the thing is, like, I don’t see him as a guy who can take over a game, because I’ve never seen it happen.

I don’t see him as a guy who could be a number one.

And I don’t think Portland did either, which is why they traded for Abdiya.

Yeah, no, I was kind of left cold.

It was like, it was funny that you brought up and shit-talked Bradley Beal.

Brad, by the way, I didn’t say any of these things.

I will give you his address.

Just leave me alone.

But it’s funny that you brought up Bradley Beal, because he reminds me a little bit of a Bradley Beal, like a guy who can make one or two plays a game that are truly stupendous.

And then, like, you don’t really remember anything else you did.

Yeah, so he has definitely been on a lot of the sort of more in-tune fans' radar here in Portland for exactly those things that you’re describing.

I mean, you know, we didn’t say this word, but the intangibles of basketball players, you know, the little things that don’t show up in stat sheets.

I mean, I know that kind of almost sounds passe, but it is very true.

You know, those are the kind of things that, to your point, that I don’t think Bradley Beal did or does very well.

And, you know, Shaden, you know, when we were tanking, he was the only thing that was fun to watch.

And he got the ball, and he would score 25, 27 points every game.

And you’re like, oh, this is the guy.

Now, though, and I think this is what you’re seeing, we do have a team that has, for his athleticism and his defense and his smarts.

But when he figures like, you know, like there’s no reason that Siddiq Sissoko can’t be Alex Caruso.

You know what I mean?

Like, like that’s just hustle work and knowledge and putting in the work in the film room, which are all things I’m pretty sure Siddiq is capable of doing.

The similarity that I draw, particularly on the Blazers roster, is to Chris Murray.

So when we drafted Chris Murray, you know, he would come to the game and it was borderline unwatchable.

But he has found his little niche, his niche, where he knows…

I’m glad you’re saying niche because I’ve heard Americans say niche and it drives me insane.

Yes, I know.

Well, it’s because you live in the French part of the world, Canada.

I do?

Anyway, yeah.

So, but when Chris Murray, you know, started in the league, he was almost unwatchable.

Chris is still the guy that, similar to Siddiq, if he has the ball at the end of the shot clock, you’re like, oh no, please, because he just, his outside shot is just horrendous.

But he has carved out a place for himself on our roster specifically as second unit defensive stopper.

I agree.

Chris Murray has actually been very, very good in this role lately.

I do watch a lot of Blazers games because of you, but also like, I mean, like, I want the little brothers to do well.

You know what I mean?

Like, I want, like, Keegan Murray is a much better player than his brother.

Right.

But I want Chris Murray to be good, you know, like, and I was always, I will just say this right now, I was always an Aussar guy over an Eamon guy, not because I think Aussar’s better, but I think that he is, like, I think that there’s not like a whole league of talent between the two of them, but like enough to know which one is better and which one almost has to play harder.

I’m a big Aussar Thompson guy.

I really, really like him.

So Keegan is definitely a more well-rounded player that you would want on your roster, but Chris plays better defense than Keegan.

So, I mean, depending on what you want to add to your roster, go for it.

All right, so I’m just going to bring this home with just a simple question.

Name for me a handful of guys, if you will, that catch your eye.

You know what I mean?

Like that you love watching play and they’re like, oh, wait, how long have I loved this guy?

Or what individual players that we have not necessarily discussed on this podcast today or in the past, or maybe we have, or maybe you and I have talked privately about them or we haven’t.

Who are the guys that you actually like, oh, I got a little bit of a kill, I’m going to switch on the game because so-and-so is playing, and maybe he’s not on your team.

Like, I think that’s the thing.

Somebody not on your team that you tune into a game to watch that surprises you.

Oh, that surprises me?

I mean, there’s the obvious ones.

Like, I will always tune in a game to watch Wemby play.

No, I’m not talking about the superstars.

Everybody in the world tunes in to watch Wemby play.

I’m talking about the guys that people, like, oh, I tune in all the time to watch Luka Dajic play.

Yeah, he’s like the best player in the world.

Like, that’s why we do it.

But, like, who’s the guy on that Lakers team that you tune in to watch outside of those guys or on those?

I mean, I did actually, before he, like, just exploded, I mean, I did enjoy watching Austin Reeves play.

Like, I did, right?

Like, he’s been on that roster for a while, and he’s been doing his thing, but he’s, I mean, everybody’s like, oh, now he’s an all-star.

But, like, I’ve been watching him play for a long time, and he’s always been fun to watch.

100%.

I’ve been on the Reeves bandwagon since the beginning, since his home play.

There was just something about him.

He has an unshakable confidence in himself, and it works.

And you could see him always trying to figure out how to be the best version of himself on whatever roster the Lakers were putting together.

And you know he gave them that home team discount when he was a free agent a couple years ago, and in the offseason, he might get $45 million, and I couldn’t be happier for him, this guy, for this guy.

And I’ll tell you one of the first things I remember about Austin Reeves.

So people started calling him Hale-Billy Kobe, which I thought was an amazing nickname.

But one of the things I really liked about Austin Reeves is from the beginning, somebody called him AR-15, Austin Reeves, he wears number 15, and he shut that shit down immediately.

He was just like, that’s not, I don’t want that to be the thing, I don’t want to be associated with this.

I don’t remember his exact words, but it was very clear he did not want to be associated with that part of American culture.

And this is a kid from Arkansas.

This is a kid from Arkansas that basically, like, if he’s not at home, he’s hooping or playing golf, that’s him, right?

And I really, really loved that about him.

I love his game, I love his confidence.

I, you know, like, whatever, man.

Like, I love the guys who are undrafted, who work their way into the league, and then they get that contract.

Like, I love an Austin Reeves, I love a Najee Marshall, I love a Nas Reed.

Huge fan of a guy that I was going to bring up when you asked me this question back to me, I’ll just say it right now, Colin Gillespie.

Colin Gillespie is going to make so much goddamn money this offseason.

He’s a UFA.

He was a two-way guy that Phoenix signed to a one-year deal, it’s like $2.5 million, and all Colin Gillespie has done has been incredible.

After the game last night, they asked Anthony Edwards, who scored 40, they said some version of it, I’m paraphrasing, you know, what was the difference?

Because Phoenix won that game by three.

And Anthony Edwards said that number 12, number 12 is good at basketball.

And Colin Gillespie was everywhere.

He’s a winner.

And I’m pretty sure Colin Gillespie, don’t quote me on this, because my brain isn’t what it used to be, I’m pretty sure Colin Gillespie was on those Villanova teams with, like, Dante DiVincenzo and, you know, the Villanova Knicks, right?

Like, I think he was on part of that.

Like, I think Colin Gillespie is about 26 or 27.

So, and, you know, Mikhail Bridge is late 20s, so is Jalen Brunson, so is Josh Hart, but I think Dante is a little bit younger.

So I think he was at least on team with Dante when they played at Villanova.

But I really, I cannot say enough about Colin Gillespie, and somebody is going to sign him to a massive free agent deal, and he deserves every penny of it.

Yeah.

Who else?

Cam Spencer, I really like.

My guy, Santi Aldama, is killing it out in Memphis.

I think he’s playing some of the best ball of his life.

The other day he went for 22-7, and he was just, like, the guy.

And I love Zach Eady, you know, big dude from Toronto.

I’m always going to cheer for him.

But, like, Zach Eady is actually really smart.

And the way that Vancouver, sorry, Vancouver, the way that Memphis uses him, sometimes.

There was this thing going around on Twitter, which I don’t participate in anymore.

I just sort of, like, look for clips.

And it was, like, Zach Eady absolutely abusing the other team for, like, a minute straight, both on offense and on defense.

And, you know, the big knock on him was that, oh, he’s going to be too slow for the NBA game.

It’s like, yeah, sure.

But also when you’re that big and skilled, you can slow the game down to your speed.

See, I think that.

You know, like, I’ve never understood that shit.

Go ahead.

So I think that something you said earlier really applies to Zach Eady.

I feel like every year he’s adding something to his game.

Granted, he’s only a couple years in.

But every time I see him, he seems better.

You know what I mean?

I agree.

I think that Zach Eady is a guy who, you know, like, he was a pitcher at one point.

Can you imagine Zach Eady throwing a fastball at you?

He’d probably go through your entire body.

But, like, Zach Eady seems like a guy who, like, was pushed into basketball because of his insane size.

But when he was at Purdue, he wasn’t just some sort of back to the basket, like, cramming.

Like, Zach Eady had touch.

He had finesse.

He was smart.

And he’s the ultimate pick-and-roll big.

The fact, like, everybody was like, can’t wait for the jaw Eady pick-and-rolls.

And you don’t get to see them because they don’t do that.

So if jaw gets moved out, look for that to be more of a part of their philosophy going forward.

Derek Queen.

I mean, it’s not